Comments on: Growing Uneasy with Bishop Willimon

By: Wesley Pepper

Wesley Pepper — Wed, 22 Jul 2009 01:31:21 +0000

I think Bishop Willimon’s comments are refreshing. Its nice to find an American Bishop that has the faith in Christ to speak out with strong words for Evangelism. Instead of focusing on some crusade that only hurts the Church. I recently had the privilage of serving a dying United Methodist Church in rural Mississippi with no hope of revitalization. However with lots of work and obedience to the Holy Ghost the Church the first two years took in 11 adult professions of faith and 17 new members. The Church just decided to love the community the way Christ loves the Church and to proclaim the gospel in its fullness. It seems pretty clear to me that many Methodist Churches would rather die than change. In short we die for lack of Vision and leaderships from the Bishops and down. Ps. Let Us offer Grace but not forget about Christian perfection that may be another cause of American Methodism decline.

By: Will

Will — Thu, 08 May 2008 08:10:33 +0000

Thanks for your comment, Craig. Again, I don’t deny what the Bishop said, and I am glad to know that he is trying ‘wake up’ churches. Perhaps the difference is more culture. Pam, Peter (comments above), and I come from a situation in which churches are near death rather than dying (hence my use of the hospice metaphor when I was talking with John). I think there are more factors involved than simply churches ‘deciding’ to die. In the UK, my churches were so used to being the centre of the community and the Queen was the head of the church, etc., that I don’t think they noticed when people stopped coming. By the time they did notice, they couldn’t think of why and the gap between them grew, as did the membership numbers. Now, as Peter suggested, we have a bunch of churches in England refusing to do anything because they either don’t know what to do, don’t know if they can (and perhaps this late in the game, nothing can), or simply aren’t going to do anything because they don’t want to change. In particular the first two situations, I will not say those churches are ‘deciding to die’ when there are other things involved. The third case is a different story, and for them, as I have implied with John’s post, I would like to read Willimon’s post in their CC.

By: Craig L. Adams

Craig L. Adams — Wed, 07 May 2008 19:12:58 +0000

Saying: “If your church is in decline and not growing, it is because your congregation has decided to die rather than to live “ is punchier for saying: “If your church is in decline and not growing, it is because your congregation has decided to act in such a way that will eventuate in death (even though they wouldn’t recognize or acknowledge that).” It’s something you write in the effort ot awaken people to the consequences of what they are doing. Might work. Might not. When churches decline they often become very anxious about how things are going — and that anxiety causes further problems.

By: Will

Will — Wed, 07 May 2008 08:31:43 +0000

Ben, thanks for your comment. I think that’s exactly what I am saying. That’s why I keep going back to my friend’s story of the church that closed. 1) They invigorated the life of the church they joined. 2) Instead of the church being sold to become a block a flats, they sold it to an Orthodox Church who now worships there (ironically, a little difficult for this former Primitive Methodist Church, but still I see God moving).

Again, I don’t disagree in principle with Bishop Willimon, I just think he needs to recognise that not all churches survive into perpetuity and they are not a failure if they do. If he does recognise this, good. I sometimes think he is more interested in being provocative than meaningful.

By: Ben Simpson

Ben Simpson — Tue, 06 May 2008 18:53:07 +0000

Is it possible that the church, as a body, sometimes need for certain cells to die off in order for other parts to be sustained, or perhaps create the energy later for regeneration?

Thanks for your comments on Bishop Willimon. I would say that my hope is that churches would live–even churches that are in decline. Leadership turnarounds are difficult, however, and it takes a special group of people bring a dying church community back to life.

By: Ben Simpson

Ben Simpson — Tue, 06 May 2008 18:52:22 +0000

Is it possible that the church, as a body, sometimes need for certain cells to die off in order for other parts to be sustained, or perhaps create the energy later for regeneration?

By: Will

Will — Sun, 04 May 2008 03:04:36 +0000

Pam: that's a great hymn. Fred Pratt Green is (or was, I think he has died now) one of the great 20th c. hymn writers. His Easter hymns are fantastic. John: Thanks for your response, and I completely agree. I think the problem, though, is when we start assuming that a particular church will go on forever without the recognition that it may die. To count it as a failure, as Bishop Willimon seems to do, is where I break with him. I think Craig Adams also speaks to this in his latest post, Why Do We Need a UMC?.

By: jmeunier

jmeunier — Sat, 03 May 2008 22:24:05 +0000

Will, I’m in the middle of cooking dinner right now, so my response will have to be short.

I think the analogy is good, but should not be pressed too far. Churches do have life cycles, but they do not have to die. Some may die. Some may need to die. But just as a rule, churches can live on for centuries. They will probably be “reborn” more than once in that time.

I agree with your point about being told you don’t have enough faith and feeling insulted by it. It begins to sound like works righteousness doesn’t it?

Gotta get back to the stir fry.

By: PamBG

PamBG — Sat, 03 May 2008 15:38:55 +0000

Was reminded of this Fred Pratt Green hymn whose lyrics seemed apropos!

The Church of Christ, in every age
Beset by change but Spirit-led,
Must claim and test its heritage,
And keep on rising from the dead.

By: Will

Will — Sat, 03 May 2008 14:13:19 +0000

John, thank you for your comment. I agree that churches can grow spiritually, but there comes a time when the building can no longer be sustained by the members. That is usually the biggest determining factor in, ‘can a church remain open?’ The people at my friend’s church were among the most spiritual I have met, but they could not maintain that large building.

I would be interested hear what don’t you agree about the analogy. That churches have life cycles or the hospice care? Many ministers here refer to the type of ministry they do among smaller churches that cannot be sustained as ‘hospice care’. I heard another minister use it from a different angle, saying that he understands that churches don’t want to be told they are dying because he didn’t want to hear it when his wife was in hospice care.

No analogy is perfect, but I find it demoralising to hear from the church and ‘higher ups’ that I don’t have ‘enough faith’ if my church closes. That’s not going to help me, and I have heard too many stories of pastors leaving over churches that wouldn’t move. I have a hard enough time not taking it personally without someone questioning my faith in the Holy Spirit or resurrection.